Sorry SNs, but English Taxpayers DO subsidise Scotland!

There is an on-going debate on the British Democracy Forum as to whether English taxpayers subsidise Scotland. One line that is constantly thrown out against this argument by some Scottish nationalists is;

“There is more money raised in taxation than is returned as the Block Grant. This means it is our money that is coming back. I don’t know how many times some of you have to be told before it eventually sinks in.”

This rather arrogant and misleading statement may well be true, as far as it goes, but the Block Grant is the money that the UK government gives to the Scottish government to spend in Scotland.

The major flaw in the “it’s our money” argument, which is often wheeled out in an attempt to con English taxpayers, is that there are still vast areas of UK government spending (with English taxpayers money) that the Scottish government, and the Block Grant do not cover.

The UK government retains complete responsibility for the operation of the Welfare State, in terms of pensions, unemployment insurance and child benefit – as part of the UK-wide Welfare State exercised by the UK Department for Work and Pensions and HM Treasury. All paid for with English taxpayers’ money not Scottish Block Grant.

The Scottish government Block Grant does not fund Scottish defence, indeed some local economies in Scotland are dependent on nearby military bases paid for, and supported, by the UK (mainly English) taxpayer. The Scottish Block Grant does not fund the large international trade missions that help to bring jobs and employment to Scotland or the Embassies and Consulates that help Scots if they are in trouble abroad!

So if England Watch could just ask ALL Scottish nationalists that think that Scotland is self-supporting to get straight on to Mr Salmond to start talking to the UK Government with an aim to getting all taxes raised in Scotland spent in Scotland. With the proviso that all taxes raised in England be spent in England!

Wouldn’t that be a great idea?

So in summary, taxpayers in England DO subsidise Scotland!

“I don’t know how many times some of you have to be told before it eventually sinks in!”

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14 thoughts on “Sorry SNs, but English Taxpayers DO subsidise Scotland!

  1. Ssssssshhhh……we all know this to be the truth in England but if we let Scotland go on believing they put more in than they take out, they might, just might vote for independence although somehow I doubt it because deep down they know the truth which is they couldn’t afford all the goodies denied to England which they enjoy courtesy of English taxes.

  2. Surely if Scotland subsisdes England then the Scottish should go it alone and be more wealthy. On the other hand if England subsidises Scotland then England should go it alone.
    Both can’t be true!

  3. What is so baffling to you people about the concept that Scottish (and Welsh and Northern Irish) people pay taxes? UK money is raised in all parts of the UK so what possible reason do you have for assuming that it is all raised from English taxpayers? Your ignorance is mind-boggling!

    Here’s how it works; Scottish people pay taxes. Some of that money is used for the block grant, some of it is used for other UK-wide expenditure (e.g. welfare), and the surplus is kept to subsidise London and the South East of England. How do we know? From official government figures which show that, even without oil & gas monies, Scotland’s tax take is greater than the total sums of money spent in or on behalf of Scotland. The difference between tax take and spend is going somewhere.

    Now… if you want to continue with your fantasy claims, let’s see some evidence. Let’s see the government figures which show taxes being raised in England and spent in Scotland.

    • We dispute your charge of ignorance, we consulted Scottish Office and Scottish Government publications before posting the article. We looked at the pros and cons, something that from your display of arrogance and aggression you seem unable to do.
      Try this one then! Yes it is two years old but it is unlikely that things have changed very much!

      “”Scotland Office Background Paper
      Time Series Analysis of Government Expenditures and Revenues in Scotland.
      January, 2010.

      “”Total spending by the UK and Scottish Governments in Scotland currently amounts to 145% of the total of Scottish tax receipts. Hence a fiscally autonomous Scotland would be dependant on the continuance of a fiscal transfer from the UK to maintain current levels of public spending. Equally, a fiscally autonomous Scotland could not make any contribution towards the provision of goods provided at the national level, such as defence, the regulation of markets or overseas representation whilst maintaining current levels of public expenditure.””

      “”The deficit between Scottish tax receipts and the sum of UK Government expenditure on social protection payments plus the entire budget of the Scottish Parliament was around £6.2 billion on 2007-8, equivalent to around £2,700 per household.””

      See page three of this link to the Government paper.

      http://www.scotlandoffice.gov.uk/scotlandoffice/files/Time%20Series%20Analysis%20of%20Government%20Expenditures%20and%20Revenues%20in%20Scotland.pdf

      If this is ‘fantasy’ then take it up with the UK Government, not England Watch please.

      • You are at liberty to dispute the figures, but the charge of ignorance relates to your (and others like you) claim that all the taxes are raised in England. How do you justify this claim of all money spent in the UK being paid by “English taxpayers”? Do you honestly believe that no-one outside England pays taxes in the UK?

  4. You are at liberty to invent your side of the argument but please do not invent ours!

    “”How do you justify this claim of all money spent in the UK being paid by “English taxpayers”?””

    That statement of yours is patently untrue! Can you please indicate where in any of our articles or replies we have claimed that?

    On the contrary, we have said, and shown, that Scotland raises £X in taxes which are collected by the UK treasury. Scotland is then given, by the UK treasury, £X plus quite a lot extra. It is the extra that comes from English taxpayers, not the whole amount. England Watch has never said this neither are we aware of anyone else who has.

    All four countries pay taxes, no one has disputed this or said otherwise, but according to the government figures that we linked to, Scotland runs at a deficit, we all know that! Wales and N I also have a negative imbalance of what they receive over what is collected there. The money to pay for the overspend in the three smaller economies has to come from somewhere and that is the English taxpayer.

    • It may have escaped your notice that the entire UK is running at a deficit! Any additional money over and above the tax take comes from borrowing, not English taxpayers. Scotland runs a deficit, but the UK’s deficit is proportionally larger so there is still a net subsidy running from Scotland to the rest of the UK.

      • We are very pleased to see that you are finally beginning to see the light and can now admit that Scotland is subsidised by the rest of the UK.

        Yesterday you were making the idiotic and easily refutable claim that;

        “”Scottish people pay taxes. Some of that money is used for the block grant, some of it is used for other UK-wide expenditure (e.g. welfare), and the surplus is kept to subsidise London and the South East of England.””

        And

        “”Scotland’s tax take is greater than the total sums of money spent in or on behalf of Scotland.””

        Whereas the truth is that for approximately every £2 raised in, and returned to, Scotland another £1has to be provided by the UK just to keep it going.

        Even if that subsidy does come from borrowing those loans will eventually have to be paid back. We have shown that ALL of the money raised in Scotland goes back to Scotland so who will end up paying off these loans, eventually?

        If the SNP and Scotland do go for independence, which is looking less and less likely as time goes on, then part of this borrowing, which you now admit is part used to subsidise Scotland, will have to be added to Scotland’s share of the national debt.

        Another reason that independence is fading.

  5. There’s no hope for you. I give up on my missionary work and leave you to wallow in your wilful ignorance.

    Enjoy.

    • Probably a good idea.
      The problem with missionaries is that they usually go where they are not wanted and work to an agenda that benefits their cause but is detrimental to their victims. They also peddle a message that is based on faith rather than reality and facts.
      All over the world there are peoples and societies that have suffered the ‘benefits’ of missionary interests, they would have jumped at the chance to be left ‘in ignorance’.

      • What do the figures say when oil and gas are factored into the equation?

  6. Well that little exchange was quite interesting, similiar to mine with a Scot when on holiday last week in Spain, in which he took exception to my CEP modified T-Shirt, which says end the Barnett Formula, answer the West Lothian Question and Home Rule for England. According to this well informed gentleman, there is no Barnett Formula and we English are blood sucking creeps living off the back of Scottish wealth. Only that wasn’t said in quite the same way.

    When I pointed out to him that North Sea Oil revenues if spent entirely in Scotland would have covered only one year in the last twenty eight, he spat between my feet and stormed off to the bar!

  7. I just had a friendly fellow link me to this opinion piece as evidence of his claim of English subsidy of Scotland. At first I thought your piece was satirical. Imagine my surprise when I read the angry retorts in the comments.

    Author, may I refer you to the Government and Expenditure Review of Scotland (GERS), a report published by the Office of National Statistics. Yes, that’s right; the ONS, part of the UK Home Civil Service. The fact I am about to reveal may traumatise you: GERS includes UK *AND* Scots government spending in Scotland. ALL spending and ALL revenue is accounted for.

    The figures reveal a Scottish fiscal balance deficit (including proportional share of national debt and deficit payments) of 7.4% of GDP.

    “SUBSIDY!” I hear you cry.

    Patience. There’s more … The figures also reveal a UK deficit of 9.2% of GDP.

    “SUBSI … wait, what?”

    Awkward.

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